I think I am ready to take the next step and read Richard Dawkin’s The God Delusion. I have been skirting the issue for a while now … sitting on the fence more like it … not knowing which way to jump … but I think I am ready now. I am ready to jump the Dawkins way and see what he has to offer. I want to see if his claim of converting anyone who is sitting-on-the-fence to atheism once they read his book holds true for me. ‘Scientist’ Pati and a few other ’scientist’ good friends of mine (including Alankrita) seem to respect the book for its clarity of thought and logic. I must give it a shot.
I had denounced organized religion a long time back and now I am thinking of denouncing God too. Tch. What is the point of religion anyway? I only know Sikhism since I was born and brought up in it; so, I’ll use it as an example. The basis of Sikhism stands strong on three rules that are also known as ‘Sikhism’s 3 Golden Rules’:
1. Naam Japo (Meditate in God)
2. Kirt Karo (work hard and honestly without cheating anyone)
3. Vand Shako (share your profits/food with others)
But all religions claim to preach almost the same in their ‘purest’ forms, don’t they? How are any of those preachings different than ‘humanity‘ as we know it except the God bit of course? As human beings, we don’t have physical strength of a lion, flight of a bird, jaws of a shark … nothin’ of the sort … all we have is a brain and sheer strength of numbers which are both key for our survival. For the sake of survival of our species (if nothing else), it is necessary for us to cooperate with each other, help each other, and live together as a community. It has long been happening in that manner since our species has existed. Men went outside to hunt collectively and women stayed behind to take care of children collectively. Societies developed like that. What is religion offering that is NEW? Except that it makes assertions (without proof) of existence of a God. How can religious folks be so sure that God does exist? Just because it is written in some book? Umm …? Even atheists funding their beliefs in science don’t say that they are SURE that God does not exist. Their claim is that it most likely does not exist. How are religious folks so sure that it certainly exists?
Moreover, all religions assert that they promote ‘peace’ (uh-huh we sure know how well that is working). Aren’t they doing just the opposite in most cases though? Many of those who claim to be deeply religious are the ones who get deeply offended and deeply hurt by someone’s remarks that don’t concur with their beliefs and they are the ones to react the most violently … apparently as opposed to what religions supposedly promote. Do you see where I am going with that? Do we really NEED religion to promote peace? Why can’t we just be peaceful (read human) without any instructions in form of a religion? Are we really that stupid? Did evolution fail us? What is the NEED of religion in our lives? How does it make us better people at all?
Only thing that religions offer is God.
But what if someone convinced you that there was no God and you honestly started believing that too, would you still follow a religion? Would there be any need for it? Aren’t most people following a religion for the fear or love or respect for God? Something that is being claimed to exist without any proof? Proof that even the most learned and rational amongst us don’t bother to ask?
In regards to God, I have a question for the religious folks out there … please help me out here … I keep hearing (I know I heard in Sikhism) that God is ONE! If God is one and s/he is just being named in different languages by different religions as per the common belief …. then Allah, God, Vaheguru, Bhagwaan et al is one and the same entity … or let’s humanize Him/Her a bit and say that … all these Allah, God, Vaheguru, Bhagwaan are one person. Like I am Roop, Rupi, Rupa, Roo, etc. but I am one person, yeh. You get my drift … then WHY, pray tell me, is there superiority complex among people in terms of their ‘God’? Why can’t people just switch from one Allah to God to Vaheguru and back without any emotional and mental loss? I’ve experienced my aunts and uncles trying to convince me on how Sikhism is the best thing in the world and Guru Granth Sahib ji is the REAL guru. Now I am exposed to families (through work) that talk about Hinduism being the best way of life. Not to mention the repeated rubbish that Christians on TV keep feeding people. For crying out loud, they are all worshiping the SAME PERSON!! Aren’t they? That’s what they claim though. They say that God is One and only One. How can that ONE person be compared with … him/her/itself? Maybe religions are talking about better routes than the other to reach the same person perhaps? Who should I believe though? Should I believe a Sikh who tells me that I was lucky to be born into the greatest religion? Or should I believe a Muslim who tells me that I am a kafir since I am not a Muslim and am doomed to hell unless I convert to Islam?
I asked Nimmi a similar question a few days ago on her blog and the thought has been brewing in my head since. She wrote that Allah sent a commandment limiting wives to 4 and I, in my quest of truth, asked her whether she really thought that Allah sent down that commandment. When she answered that she did believe it to be true, I enquired further about whether Allah and Vaheguru were one and the same entity since both her religion and my birth-religion claim that God is only one. It has to be that either Allah is the only God or Vaheguru is the only God or they are both the same entity. Her response was that of any secular person that God is ultimately one and the same entity. Fine, I said, then why does this ONE PERSON have different rules for his different children? Why does this ONE PERSON tells Muslims to have four wives whilst limits poor Sikhs to only one? Why is this ONE PERSON, who people refer to as a parent, unfair? Parents are never unfair! That’s an absolute truth. For a parent, all their children (of the same sex at least *a bit tongue in cheek there*) are equal. Why isn’t it true for this God Person? Why is this God Person making different rules for his/her/its different children?
Ah … this will never end.
After making my promise to lallopallo to keep this post short, I miserably failed. ;p There is too much to say still but I’ll cut it short here to keep some dignity of my word ;) …. and let you answer my question please …. Religion: What is it good for?
Also, I leave you with a video clip of Richard Dawkins at Bill Maher’s show (I love Maher by the way and maybe soon I’d be loving Dawkins too just as much as Pati and Alankrita do):
Roop dear…This is not complicated dear..God is always fair..But almost all his followers are unfair..Pls dn’t relate God to his followers..
And you very much right on the practical and RIGHTLY when you say that its is not theory,but practise that matters..But blaming that practical outcome is faulty,is simply bcoz it is the theory that is wrong,is a lame comment…Why are you not taking into consideration the human factor ,what that plays the role of converting theory into practise? Simply bcoz this human factor goes wrong,you can’t blame it ont theory..
Just my 2 cents..
But, Nims, (going by your point of view) isn’t it too big an assumption that theory itself is not flawed? Isn’t it an assumption that it’s not the theory that’s causing the humans to fail and act in a flawed manner? What makes you so sure that the theory is infallible and it has to be human beings who are mucking it up?
Also, how are followers being unfair in the example of number of wives that I quoted? You said that it was Allah who limited wives to 4 … but then when the same Allah spoke to Sikhs, He/She limited them to only one wife … that’s a tad unfair, don’t you think?
Well,there is onlt one simple answer to that qstn-FAITH..Either you believe there is somebody called God ,or you don’t…Its our personal choice whether we belive in gor or not..There is no proof for faith,and there needn’t be..Otherwise it would be called science right?
I don’t think that believing in God is a great or silly thing either..Ultimately,what matters is ,how the perception of having/not having a God makes life in this world better..If an organized religion,with a set of rules on how to conduct yourself makes life among human beings a better ones,religion is a great thing..But if religion is used to divide people,create more n more rifts among hearts,makes life rigid by yelling ‘do this,dn’t do that’ bla bla bla,then it is a dirty business..
I agree that religion as of today is a dirty stuff..What it does is mainly dividing people..But relligion or faith in my heart is not that..Maybe i am not follwoing the mainstream,,But i have firm belief in God and I believe that every religion preaches goodness..
My question is that do we need RELIGION to tell us to be good? Why can’t we be good to others without religion? Why do we need Faith in something that might or might not exist to be good citizens? Why can’t we love one another and live peacefully in co-existence without religion having to tell us to do that? I don’t follow any organized religion and I don’t think I am a bad person at all. I know a few really brilliant people who do without religion too. They don’t need religion to tell them to be ‘good’ human beings. What is the purpose of religion to exist then? There is no necessity of it. People can be good and loving without it.
Also, it’s not the matter of today that religion is divisive. Religion has been divisive ever since it has taken form. History is proof of that.
Too bad that humanity never could do without the mythical stories and fantasies about a superior being though but that’s a topic for another day.
lol…4 wives…
See Roop,Quran was sent down to a community who treated women no better than animals nad every man ahd lot of wives,lot of concubines and like..Then came God commandment to stop all such dirty business and prohibitted forcination in marriage and limited maximum number to 4..That doesn’t mena that all muslim men can marry 4 ladies..It is a rare choice/duty ,that is an allowance when in cases of wars when lot of men die out on warfield and scociety is in a crisis,with lot of widows and orphans..
Simply bcoz some perverts marry twice or thrice out of lust,it doens’t mean that they ahve approval by God..Polygamy is permitted under strict conditions and rather than a luxury,it is a burden to ahve more than a wife is islam,bcoz it is prohibitted to deal with them unbalcanced..Man with more wives need to provide them exact same provisions for all of them,like house worth same value,spent equal time and like..Since it is an impossible task as of today,polygamy has no value today..Also,today women are social,ecnomically and politically strong than 1400 yrs ago when they were baby machines alone..So again,polygamy is not a choice for today…
My point is simple,polygamy was a need in the past and hence practised..Today it is not a need as society has chaneged and theer is no crisis on part of women..But we are not sure of tomorrow..Even a child knows that just 3-4 nukes spread over some continents is good enough to kill more than half a population..Didn;t we go back to the state of 2000 yrs backward in a matter of few hours..So again,need for polygamy may arise nad social and moral standars may vary..
We are strong today..But can you tell me that world around,people around will remain unchanged for ever dear?
All of us should start questioning God and the madness that comes with believing Him/Her in the name of religion. Religion, whatever may be its ultimate goal spawns a feeling of superiority among its followers. Its always “My God is the Best”.
Its evolution I guess. People in pre-historic times lived a dangerous and unprotected life, they had to believe in God for some sort of moral support to keep themselves sane, we live in a comparatively safer environment time now, about time we gave up such beliefs.
:)
You are a nice person,so have i seen and talked to many great atheists..See Roop,you talk of history yet you easily forget the history that religion has been years since people began practising..and in course of conturies,attitudes,morals,everything has chnaged and genration over generation people got tuned to the morals..As of today,we are an evolved society and you can’t alieanate yourself from the society and say that i am good on ym own..No,You are good,bcoz you are seasoned to be good..You are good bcoz of the culture,enviornment,the upbringing,the morals of your parents,education and many many many others factors..Do you think you have an existeance without all this?
Maybe you can say bcoz u r a fully developed adult person today..But remember that you didn;t came to this world as a fully developed person..Social ecnomical ,political and cultural factors have made you the person you are..Simply bcoz u and me are blessed enough to have great parents,great education and thus empowerment,we can’t turn our face away from the world that made us the person we are today..
Yo,i am giving a boring long speech here..sorry for my rant..
All i was saying is that you and me are good not just bcoz of ourselves,but bcoz of the enviorment around us and both of us know that religion has played a great role in organizing the nomadic society..
I maybe wrong..I don;t know much about all ths..nor am a good think tank nor am i a good reader..I am a least informed person,and hence,my thoughs will be shallow…Sorry about still ranting..
Lol..Somebody else shared the smae thoguht while i was typing the last comment..But don’t you think the last part of the comment,it is lame or being unthankful to those people who made the world a balanced and evolved one as of today…
No i don’t understand how it is lame or being unthankful, Nimm.
and, no, you are not ranting. you have every right to present your view … for only with that presentation can I or anyone else in the same boat as me per se, explore our thoughts further.
anyway, i am to bed for now. more in the morn’ :).
My God exists irrespective of my religion. The trappings of religion do not bind my faith in God.
D, a powerful line.
Doesn’t that imply a reverse evolution where in course of generations,we’ll lose the values we have today,and finally result in the same insane human communtity we had before religion came up??Is that a desirable one?
As usual you are going too fast for me to think.. was lost on your post on the Delhi blasts and now I find that you have given up on religion..:)
HK: ROFL just for that, I shall take today off! hehe
I think religion is a personal matter and no one has to believe in the Almighty if they do not wish to.
If you really wish to seek knowledge on religion, then I would suggest that you read religious texts on your own. With a little bit of effort, you should be able to procure English translations of the Guru Granthh Saahib, the Quran and the Bhagvad Gita. The Holy Bible obviously requires no such translation.
Until then, as they say, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”
SS: I’ve struggled with Granth Sahib … only thing that bothers me about it is that it keeps playing God up like any other religious text (with the basic assumption that God does exist without any proof) :/. Why should I not assume that there is no existence of God? It’s the same both ways, isn’t it. 50-50 chance.
Nimmy,
“Its our personal choice whether we belive in gor or not..”
Not quite.
I can’t choose to believe something. Anything. I believe something based on whether or not I accept the evidence for said thing. That isn’t an act of will. I couldn’t sit and decide to believe in, say, the Christian god. That could only happen if I was convinced of it’s truth through evidence.
Sidhusaaheb:
“The Holy Bible obviously requires no such translation.”
Sure it does. Which translation do you use? King James? New International? Skeptic’s Annotated? New American? New Living? The Jefferson Bible?
Don’t have time to read all the comments…there is too much to say about religion to get into commenting here…it always deserves it’s own post and I have written out my thoughts on my blog before…I will say it comes down to faith, it also comes down to being indoctrinated from birth and don’t know any different or at a vulnerable time in a person’s life and are easily swayed to a belief system what someone believes.
…but I have to say I loved The God Delusion. The only problem is he had an issue breaking some scientific things down into layman’s terms so it took me a while to get through it.
Funny story…I am Buddhist, but Buddhism isn’t a religion…anyway…I saw Dawkins’ book in Wired magazine when they did an article on him. I mentioned to DH that I wanted to read the book as he seemed interesting. We went to B&N and got the book and I began to read it.
Now, DH was what I call a silent Atheist. He didn’t believe but never really vocalized his point of view…until I had him read the book. LOL Dawkins calls for Atheist to stand up for what they believe (or don’t believe) as he feels that if all Atheists come forward the religious community will have to acknowledge that there are quite a bit more than they realized.
So now…after DH read the book…he is now a hard core Atheist. LOL He doesn’t push his beliefs on anyone, but he is more than willing to tell you exactly what he thinks.
Yep, S, same with husband. U read it? hmm I MUST read it now.
Nimmy
You assume that we will lose our “values” when we give up on religion. That is where I disagree with you. I do not believe that a religious person has better moral values when compared to a non religious person nor do I believe that religions inculcate better values in people.
As you mentioned above great parents, a good education and a nurturing environment makes good human beings, not religion and I’m eternally thankful to my parents for not forcing their religion down my throat. That is what a parent should do, let the child choose.
And no, I do not feel the need to be thankful to religions, I don’t have to praise others for their herd mentality and irrationality (note that I’m talking about organised religions here and not about plain belief in God). I’m not going to start thanking people who chose not to exercise their minds…
Rags, I agree cent percent. Couldn’t have been said better.
I would echo D on this.
God for me is an abstract idea that gives me strength and hope, whom I can turn to when I feel helpless. I can literally turn over my problems to God and sleep peacefully at night. (Or most problems anyhow!) Doesn’t mean I actually believe a miracle will happen overnight while I sleep, but the thought still gives me comfort to carry on under difficult circumstances.
God for me is also an abstraction of kindness and love and all things good. But I agree with you when you say one doesn’t need a God or faith in God to be good. To each his own in this case. Some of us would want to personify goodness, some are happier without it.
Now for religion. Religion to me is simply a cultural thing. Something that gives me a sense of community and family. Festivals are an excuse to come together, dress up, cook great food, have fun and reaffirm one’s commitment to goodness. And religious rituals are about preserving a sense of continuity, where I do the same things my grandmother and greatgrandmother did before me and remember them in the process.
Now to answer your question – Why one God and multiple teachings? – I do not believe any of these teachings to be literally the words of God. Perhaps they are God’s ideas (which is the same to me as saying they are ‘good’ ideas!), but they are obviously filtered through the thoughts and words and deeds of Man. So a Sikh Guru, when he writes a holy verse, tries to put his own life’s learnings into it somewhere and so on…
To sum up, I don’t consider myself an organized religion person at all. Nor am I an atheist though. I like the comfort I find in a) the idea of God and b) religious gatherings/festivals/rituals. Works for me – simple! Finally, this is not about indoctrination – some folks in my family are pretty orthodox Hindus and would consider me bowing my head before a mosque or a church blasphemous.
Fair enough, Devaki. I guess as long as you don’t put anyone else down and keep your belief system your own private matter, it’s really not an issue to be bothered with. Just like if I start believing that there is no God, no one should come and tell me how wrong I am. That’s my personal belief and it should be left at that … yep, makes sense.
As of today,we are an evolved society and you can’t alieanate yourself from the society and say that i am good on ym own..No,You are good,bcoz you are seasoned to be good..You are good bcoz of the culture,enviornment,the upbringing,the morals of your parents,education and many many many others factors..
I can’t agree with this either. Current religions just took from older religions. People, by nature, are “moral”…it is in our brain. There are studies that have pinpointed what part of the brain makes us moral creatures by studying brain damaged patients and their choices.
If what you mean by moral is not stealing, being good to one another, etc…one can speak of evolution on that respect as it isn’t in the best interest of our species to do wrong by one another. It isn’t in the best interest of our species to go around killing one another, it is in the best interest of our species that we take care of one another so our species continues. People forget…we are animals trying prolong our existence like any other animal on the planet.
If anything, religion has complicated things. Fundamentally, religion is a good IDEA. But…again…evolution has made it where we dislike those that aren’t like us. Makes sense on that level as anything not like us could destroy our species. That is where religion = bad comes in. It started as not like any human that wasn’t “normal” because birth defects or other defects could be bad for the procreation of the human race. BUT…Because humans tend to not like those who aren’t like us it has crossed over into the religions of the world who have set out to destroy one another either by elimination or conversion.
With that said…fundamentally…religion isn’t a bad idea in and of itself. I could really care less what others believe as long as they treat the ones around them with decency and respect. It comes when there are those who would trample on basic human rights or other beliefs just so they can be “right”.
There have been just as much blood spilled for religious reasons as non religious…the only different is the religious reasons are more dangerous.
I think I will just copy paste my comment on similar post on Reema’s blog. :)
Yes, I also believe that organized religion has done more harm than good to the mankind. But, at the same time, I think many so called religious people have done good for the society and led a righteous life after getting inspired from their religiosity. Now, is it really because of their religion they did/do all the right things or it’s just that they were born moral/nice people? I think there is no easy answer to that , though I tend to believe that morality is older than religion and so it precedes religion rather than the other way around..In other words, I believe that Morality is instinctive ( something we are born with) and therefore not induced by religion ( which is external)..
I recommend you read ” End of Faith ” by Sam Harris..it’s one of the most interesting books I read about futility of religion in modern times..
Surely will get it lallo … as soon as i get back from trips abroad :D
I thought this post was pretty thoughtful. To answer your question about God, Allah, etc, etc, all being one, there is a clear answer (in my opinion). There is one God. Now you may call him different things, in fact, the Bible uses many names for him. But there is a difference between the God of the Bible, Allah, the gods of Hinduism and the like. The gods of those religions are as different from each other as you and I are. And if there is one God, he cannot be all those different gods. It just doesn’t work that way. Its not a bad thing, its just the way it is.
And though we do not have conclusive scientific evidence for or against the existence of God, I am convinced with the way God has acted in my life, that he does exist. And so I would never give up serving the One who will deliver me from this life.
But I agree, that it can be tough to discern truth when we are getting so many different messages from the world.
Norm: thanks! :) …. so did each religion discover a different God and started worshiping it? or is it just something make-believe? something fictional anyone can make up cuz we, as humans, need to have a superior presence looking after us so we dont feel so alone?
Hello. Despite the deluge of voices, if you may let us join the conversation. We respect and honor you for your thought on the matter, but may we point out a few areas where you might want to reconsider?
Although it is a common sentiment right now that all gods are just different names for the same thing, almost every religious tradition would completely disagree with that. Sure many nominal followers might say “OK” to that, but according to their various holy books and doctrines that could not be more wrong.
It is not that the religions necessarily have a “My God can beat up your god” mentality. It is that it is impossible to maintain that these gods are the same.
To illustrate: If we were to tell you about Mom, we might describe her as having blue eyes, blond hair, very pink lips, and very tall (actually this isn’t true of our mothers). We would also tell you about her personality. Maybe she is very talkative, she loves to dance, and she has a really bad temper.
Then you would counter, “No, Mom is totally different.” Then you would describe her. Then some well meaning individuals might claim that really we should all be happy because it is one Mom. But that could not be. We know Mom by her qualities, and it is obvious that we are describing different people.
It might sound happy to think that all of these religions are promoting the same god, but there is just no logic in that. Wishful thinking, yes. Logic, not really. It is just impossible for an intelligent person to believe that these are the same, which is a position that Dawkins would agree on.
It is also said frequently in today’s zeitgeist that “it doesn’t matter what you have faith in, as long as you really believe it.” Not only is that nonsensical as well, but dangerous. Faith is a belief in something (naturally). If we were to say we believed that tomorrow someone was going to give us a million dollars it would be a sweet thought, but it won’t happen (unless any of you reading get inspired–no one is reading anyway). Our faith in the lottery, even if we really believed in it, was faith in something totally hollow. From this perspective, we can clearly see that it is not the faith that is the answer, but what we put that faith in.
So the only logical answer is to say one of two things: either there must be no God, or which God is the true one? We might suggest that along with Dawkins, you might want to read “The Language of God” by Francis Collins. He is the guy who was the head of the Human Genome Project, and a man who found faith in God after he was already a scientist. You might try “Orthodoxy” by G.K. Chesterton, who was one of the most brilliant people we’ve ever written, although some people find his writing a little above their intelligence. Grace and peace to you, and we honor you for your quest.
Wow, that was something! I thank all of you for your time and your comment. I shall definitely check out the books suggested by you in due time. It might not be now but in the next few coming months, it shall definitely happen. Thanks to all of you once again. Was a pleasure knowing you and y’allz mom too. ;D
Religion was created by people. God is the unknowable mystery.
“The Unseen Artist”
Michelangelo’s ‘David’ — spectacular, man-made masterpiece
Blue footed boobies in Galapagos — make ‘David’ look like sculpted rock.
Mozart’s finest symphonies — man-made, music masterpieces
Sound of baby Robins chirping — make Mozart… sound fabricated.
Artists throughout the ages — seemingly succeed in portraying Nature’s beauty
Venus in the midnight sky… reminds them, they are humble attempts at plagiarism.
Humanity tries to capture newly opened rose buds — in painting, fabric and poetry
The heart’s rapture is seen in masterpieces… the perfume, however, is absent.
Better to make great works of art — than war – better to plagiarize nature — to remind
Suffering humanity that tortures the rest of life — along with torturing each other
That we are surrounded by beauty… we can have the perfume — instead of war.
That is what artists are pointing to… beauty, that cannot be fully captured.
So life-like, one forgets — they are paintings, sculptures and instruments — momentarily
Masters of art… servants of the Unseen Artist — that makes roses with the perfume present.
We have somewhat similar thoughts . But religion is just the road to God, if you don’t like the way make your own . Ultimately believing or disbelieving is a personal choice..
http://kislaychandra.blogspot.com/2008/04/religion-oxford-defines-it-as-belief-in.html .
But Kislay … i am not even sure if God exists or not!
My opinion: No you dont need religion to be a good human being. On the other hand many “ungood” humans are quite religious. Anyway it all comes down to how you feel about it. No matter what you read or what anyone tells you, its your own thoughts and ideas which makes you believe or not believe. And at one point if you dont feel the presence, there is no use of anyone trying to reason it out with you – this is something I have been trying to tell people. They tell me “believe, just believe”, but believing is not something you can do voluntarily like taking a walk! Its got to happen. So keep your mind open, and let whatever changes come, come. If you are a good human being with a good heart, it doesnt matter if you have a religion or faith in God. My Mom consoles herself by saying “My children may not be God-believing but they’d never do anything God wouldnt approve”
ms. C: that’s a fab line!!!! did your mom come up with it or are you imagining her to be saying that? :p
Pls dn’t put words down my throat..I never said that non religious people immoral loose people and that religious people are angels dressed in white…
lallopallo makes an interesting comment..
I agree 100%..As of today,almost all organized religions are messed up and just promote division and hatred.But wasn’t i saying the same thing in my last comment?
Right..Also,non religious people too ahve done good for the world..
I really don’t know how can a person be in single act nice when the society around is not nice..I was saying that religion is great in having collective organzed society..
True,morality can’t be induced..But i believe seasoning or conditioned resposes can help in maintainin better order of society as a whole..
Nimz: I agree but can’t it happen without religion or belief in something not everyone is sure that exists?
This is a sensitive issue, but the question to whether there is a God is simply a never ending one. My judgment is based on history as it has been recorded. All religions were brought to be by some group of people, or someone: it is a known fact that humans created religion and the truth to God lays with that person that started all this, did God really came to him and spoke of the words to all this and more? we can never know as we have no ability to rise the dead and question them. I agree that we don’t need religion to be good, it simply comes from our good judgment and heart. A great figure once said: Do as you pleased, as long as you harm none. To believe or not to believe is your own personal preference yet the main agenda is to live life to the fullest regardless of differences and believes.
Sensibly spoken, Derick.
Very interesting reading each person’s thoughts on this subject… Religion, what good is it?
Honestly I for one cannot see Religion as something which makes people good; for I do not believe any one person is actually good. Sure there are moral rules to follow to which make one seem like they are good, but then that is according to which rules we categorize as what makes us moral.
One doesn’t have to believe in a god in order to be religious either.
I agree… you either believe or do not believe, but do not allow your mind to be tormented and then come to some conclusion in order to please someone else. When you do find what you believe in, stand on it and don’t waiver.
I don’t care for religion, but I do believe in God. I don’t believe every religion believes in the same God. On the surface all the gods seem to have similarities, but when you begin to research the religion you will find their god is not exactly as the god someone else says is God/the Only God.
Notice I am not trying to pursuade you over to my beliefs. I am not trying to convert you to any religion.
I believe in many spirits, but only One True God, whom I believe is Good. Even while we may not see some of His ideas as being good or just; for Him they are good and are just. There are a lot of people who want to call themselves good, because they believe that since they do good things, this makes them good. I have lived 53 years and know no one on this planet who I can say is good. Just as quick as they do something moral, they can just as quickly do something immoral. To me this qualifies everyone as wicked to the heart. Therefore, only a Good God is able to encourage a passionate soul to be better than he/she could ever be on their own.
If I had even .05 percent of disbelief in God, then I would say I was an easy target to be pursuaded by Athiestic idealism. Yet it seems the more they speak, the more I am convinced… there truly must be a God. For He even states: I will be hated by many. They are proving His words to be true.
I sure do pray you will come to understand it won’t matter what the majority thinks to be true, what matters is whether or not you are at peace within yourself as to what you believe.
Agreed! Well-put. It should be a personal decision unswayed by what majority views or thinks and no one should put any one else’s choice down either. If someone worships a stone, those worshiping water shouldn’t mock the stone-worshipers and try to convert them and threaten them with death if they don’t convert.
Nimmy, You have to understand that for those of us who aren’t of a religious persuasion especially that we ARE told we are immoral because we don’t believe in a certain version of God.
There are some that go so far as convincing others that anyone not of their particular religious flavor is immoral and evil and should be destroyed.
I have come across many websites and other literature that spread lies about another group of people just to prove their point. Many people will believe these lies because they were told by a person in religious power (or at least power over them) and have be conditioned to not ask questions.
These same people are forbidden to actually fact find and try to discover the truth or risk being labeled evil themselves then the same lies are spread about you. I know. It happened to me. My own mother decided to spread a lie that I was in a “black magic coven” among other things because at my wedding I had a ribbon around my neck with my engagement ring on it so I could put my wedding ring on first…(yea I am still trying to figure her logic with that one out..I should say she refused to come to my wedding and therefore was just going off of pictures she saw).
What I am saying is, just like it can be a sensitive subject for believers it is also a sensitive subject for non believers as well. People will always be offended, but you have to really think through the point you are trying to get across to at least try to get others to understand your point of view.
In saying that, you must realize that others are trying to do the same thing and try not to get offended quickly as what they say may not be what they mean and it always comes out the wrong way. Everyone just wants their point of view understood, but it isn’t always easy to see past the emotion to what others are trying to say.
If you took offense to something I, personally, posted, I apologize. It was never my intention…I was just trying to state my point of view and would be more than willing to have a meaningful discussion/debate (with anyone for that matter) if there are any questions anyone has about my position or any clarifications that are needed.
If you’ve actually made an attempt at reading the Guru Granthh Saahib, it is strange that you’ve missed some vital facts.
1. The Almighty has not been described as a ‘God-person’, but as a life-giving force that is devoid of any physical form and is eternal and present in every single particle of the universe.
2. The Guru Granthh Saahib not only describes the concept of ‘God’, but also defines a certain way of life that can help a Gursikh attain peace of mind, at all times. Incidentally, that is not limited at all to the ‘Golden Rules’ you have mentioned.
3. The Guru Granthh Saahib does not lay down any ‘Golden Rules of Sikhism’, but is a collection of wisdom from not only the Sikh Gurus, but also saints from the Sufi and Bhakti movements.
You may not wish to believe in God, but if you are going to read either the Guru Granthh Saahib or any other religious text like the Quran or the Gita or the Bible, having a slightly more open frame of mind, which goes beyond the aim of disproving the existence of God, might be of help.
The essence of all is bound to be the same, as you’ve mentioned, like people at different places have different food-habits, but the object ultimately is the same i.e. to satisfy hunger. This is a vital fact that, if understood by those who fight in the name of religion, could help avoid a lot of unnecessary blood-shed, besides a lot of negativity in people’s lives.
SS: When I read GGGS (which by the way was practically all my childhood and adulthood so far), I read it and was taught it like a text where we sat down and analyzed it line by line. What you say is all necessarily true about the text …. but my issue (now) is with #1 itself. I don’t think I believe in any life-giving force now at all. I’ll agree that the way of life that GGGS prescribes is a lot more pertinent to today’s society than any of the older texts of much older religions are considering that Sikhism is fairly young and only a few hundred years old. However, one thing that all of the religions are funded in is a belief in God. It’s taken for granted that a creator/a life giving force (aka God) exists. Entire Japuji Sahib (that every kid learns before anything else once starting to read about sikhism) is about praising God. The mool-mantar itself starts with praising God who created life and is the formless, shapeless, omnipresent, omnipotent etc. entity. It takes for granted that God exists and goes on to describe Him/Her to us in forms of beautiful poetry. Nanak, throughout Japuji Sahib, thanks Nirankar numerous times. Again, by taking Nirankar for granted … that it exists.
“What is religion good for?”
- well I guess it brings comfort to some peoples. And that in my opinion must be the ‘best’ thing that religion is good for. But it all depends on how the individual person ‘live’ their religion. If people are being very strict literate concerning their ‘holy texts’ I personally would not be very fond of that. But as long as religions exist people fortunately will have different interpretations of their specific religion, and many will have what I would would see as ‘relaxed’ relations to their religion, and then it’s probably the comfort-element which is somehow a ‘good’ thing.
But again it all depends on how one looks at it. If religions makes people from doing otherwise harmless things, because it’s thought of to be a sin, then the comfort is not necessary a positive element; ie. that the restrictions put on the individual person is vastly and strict. Then I would personally think that people had wasted their life on a fantasy; ie. life is not lived for the life, but for the dream of the afterlife.
As for the idea of the ‘one god’ it seems to me to be a concept that some are hoping somehow can ‘connect’ peoples across of different faiths; ie. the idea that the different religions is a true vision of the ‘one god (or divinity)’, but not a full vision. But the problem of this concept is that all the differnt religions and sect allways will have some core of adherents who will boast their ‘true’ version; ie. that the others are wrong, heretics, etc.
By the way if you had not guessed it already, I’m a optimistic atheist :)
soren: so you’d say that religion’s existence is more due to psychological reasons rather than any spiritual or metaphysical elements? … and yes, optimistic atheist is what im more and more leaning towards these days heh.
I’ve been writing about this lately. I have yet to check out the book. I started a new series in which I try to shed light on a particular church in my area that has been very successful. I’m trying to organize my thoughts and show people the processes that they do/do not go through when they buy into a religious salespitch.
Check it out if you like- I’m always interested in talking with people. Helps expand my thoughts and put new twists on old views!
http://theavidpenguin.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/mark-driscollmark-driscoll/
You know Roo, I can argue, being “good” because of religion of god is like being decent because you know someone is watching- doesn’t it seem a trifle hypocritical? Now a “moral” non believer, who behaves well , does good, does so from the goodness of his or her heart- not from the anticipation of a reward in the hereafter. So the atheist is , by this example, more moral than the believer. Because he atheist is not getting anything back- in this life or the next for the good the atheist does.
Apart from that- I wonder, isn’t belief in a god and the associated ritual, tradition or even deference like a shackle. Doesn’t it impede thinking for oneself- and this is not only for the followers of organized religion- but even the believers in a greater being – the whole idea that there is a “Big Brother” ( or Big Sister) figure out there, watching over – its a little creepy isn’t it? Not to mention the things you need to be careful about not to annoy your deity? Nor the weird and often very circular arguments one needs to make in the defense of same invisible friend.
And then there is the arrogance of belief- seriously does god care for you? Not for the people dying my the thousands when a river bursts its banks, not the millions killed in senseless violence, not the thousands dying of incurable diseases…. I just wonder what makes people believe there is something watching out for them, seriously are believers so full of their own importance? That they somehow are more special than the millions who are so terribly blighted- that above all bothers me the most about being a believer in a divine being- the idea that it robs one of the compassion so essential to be human.
Just had to add my atheist two cents.
Alankie, Why does this invisible friend only give misery after misery to some people? It’s explained by karma from previous janam. Uh-uh. Liked this line: that above all bothers me the most about being a believer in a divine being- the idea that it robs one of the compassion so essential to be human. Profound one cent. (rest of it is one cent … just this one line takes 50% of the two cents) hee hee
Jesus Christ, not religion, is the only name by under heaven and earth by which you must be saved. Whether you believe it or not does not make it less true If you are willing to bet your ETERNITY on what you believe, that is your choice!
The Apostle Paul speaks in the following verses to address exactly why you keep up this sad chatter:
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come form the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spirtually discerned”. (I Corinthians 2:14)
“For the messageof the cross is foolishness to those who ae perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1Corinthians 1:18)
Marianne: Thank you for your views. I choose not to be saved. Thank you anyway though.
“For the messageof the cross is foolishness to those who ae perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God”
Which basically can be summed up as: to believe it, you need to believe it.
Very deep…
hahaha morse
I agree with Ms.Lordi. I was an admin@atheist.com and then I died. Now I went straight to hell because of all the reasons Ms. Lordi cites. They even read those exact same lines to me at the gates of hell. If I’d only read these lines from Ms. Lordi earlier, I wouldn’t be managing the hell (www.hell.com) site now.
All you people who don’t accept mr. Christ as the saviour and drink his blood and eat his flesh, and believe that GOD made love to a Virgin, and a Mr Christ flew to the heaven NAKED would be coming to hell as well.
The best part is that we have internet here but it’s just dial-up … so you will be waiting for websites to load for ETERNITY. But time is all that u have here and it’s punishment for you watching porn online and having bad thoughts and not believing in Mr. Christ.
Thank Ms. Lordi. Pls accept mr. Christ as Ms. Lordi suggests and go to heaven where you can watch some godly angel porn on DSL.
admin,
http://www.hell.com
ROFLMAO, you are crazy, P! :p
Roop,
RE. Ms. Lordi; If you talk about religion you will have to accept there will be those who will come here to not debate or discuss but to convert. Some are decent enough people that just want to put their 2 cents worth and say what they have to…and I have never minded those individuals because they have a right to speak and believe as they wish…but be prepared for a lot of hatefulness and Trolls as well over time.
Just wanted to put that out there for you, Roop, so you could be prepared.
;-)
Oh…and did you see my photo blog you inspired to to make?? :-D
liquidplaid.wordpress.com
:-D
Wait I need one more…
:-D
You really hit on an issue people want to discuss! It doesn’t help that WordPress featured you.
What a lot of people are misunderstanding here, is that Roop isn’t discussing (if we may be so presumptive as to be the interprators of Roop) is not religion per say, or the merits of a particular church. She is talking about her personal struggle over the existence of God.
Someone (we shall not scroll up to determine—nor will anyone care) had it right in that “religion” is an attempt to reach (or a path to) God (or gods). Faith is not just a belief, but a reliance on that God (or gods).
One can have faith in a particular god, without having it codified into a religion. It becomes more complicated of course, when one realizes that one cannot exist without faith (as we have just explained it). One either has faith in a god, or in the concept that there is no god. There is no such thing as an atheist really, because by definition an atheist must say “without a doubt there is no God.” To say that is to say “I possess all the knowledge in the universe and can definitively determine that.” That is, as Collins suggested, ridiculous. And as Chesterton suggested, would be declaring oneself God.
What confuses us here is two points:
1-that people seem to have such a difficult time the actions of people within codified religions and the concept of God. As if it were logical to say “Tom killed a puppy. Tom believes in God. Killing puppies is wrong. Therefore the idea of God is wrong.” This seems to be as illogical as the “all paths lead to the same God” fallacy.
Several people, while well meaning, have connected their entire suppositions through this line of thinking.
2-People keep repeating the same memes about religion that they know to be untrue as if repeating them will make them true. No, religion is not the main cause of war throughout history. Not even close. It is resource competition, although religion is often appealed to by the governments in order to opiate the masses. In doing so, they are also falling prey to the fallacy in #1 by assuming that even if such memes were true it would disprove God’s existence. It is sad that people are just repeating things they know (we would hope they’ve thought enough to realize) to be false.
We hope we haven’t sounded rude. People are being so civil and kind. You have created something special. We are honored that you responded too. If you read “Orthodoxy” we’d love to chat about it. Chesterton writes in a way that’d really connect with your thinking, even if you didn’t agree. Or so it seems to us. Thanks so much, Roop.
We promise not to leave any more lengthy comments
everyone else
hehehe all of you left me giggling!!! you’re all welcome over for supper sometime and we can all discuss chesterton over a glass of wine once i’ve read the book. ;p
Yep!! Great Hot Topic!! Religion and Politics will get you everytime!!.. ROFL To me Religion is good for NOTHING!! It’s the ppl that believe that it mean’s something too! Right? I DO NOT believe in God and OH MY I lived through Hurricane Ike!! And NO we did NOT sit under the stairway and pray for help.. Man, Ike is here stick it out or die!! And pray to whom? The star’s the sky’s!! If that’s the case yea! But, there are ALL different Religion’s and ALL of them are trying to go to one place somewhere up there right? Why not all of you believe in the same thing, and quit talking about other ppl’s beliefs! It seem’s like if you believe in God, your always argumentive!! And ALWAYS seem to have and answer like “God wanted it that way”…Duh!! God wanted that Train wreck, or God wanted this Hurricane and kill and damage all our home’s… NOT!!! If I believed in God I would diffently get another God! right? til l8er
wavey: i think im gonna start worshiping my laptop. :D
Indian food?
We love Indian food! Curry makes us happy…well, at least for a little while. Sometimes it makes us sad after that.
lol. i was thinking more or less take away with a cheap wine but i guess guests’ wishes will have to be respected ;p … issokie, we’ll go easy on the spices bit and sadness could be averted. ;p
What is religion good for?
“Religion is what the common people see as true,
the wise see as false, and the rulers see as useful.”
— Seneca
When it comes to bread and circuses, there is no better circus than religion.
would that mean im wise, che? :D
That was an awesome article!!
I’d like to use it for my essay writing in bits and pieces.. May I??
Ha! Perhaps! :P
[...] all religions are equal and that all promote peace and all that jazz? You’re already aware of my thoughts on religion and God. I think that all religions are a waste of time and God is only a psychological construct or a fake [...]